so here they come, the sound of drums...

[chicafrom3]

So, this post on female characters in fandom by fabu came up on metafandom, and I read it and it's very interesting and well-thought out and inspired that thing I do every so often where I examine my own biases in fictional characters.



There are exactly two fictional characters that I outright hate. That's Dylan Hunt (Andromeda) and Ana-Lucia Cortez (Lost).

There's a longer list of characters that I dislike or am actively disinterested in. (Is that possible? To be actively disinterested in someone?) Anyway: Rose Tyler (Doctor Who, dislike), Jack Shepherd and Kate Austen (Lost, disinterest), Peter Petrelli and Claire Bennett (Heroes, disinterest), Liz Parker and Max Evans (Roswell, varies depending on the episode), Monica Reyes and John Doggett (The X-Files, disinterest), Gwen Cooper and Owen Harper (Torchwood, disinterest towards Gwen, dislike towards Owen).

...wow, this is the first time that I realized I tend to dislike characters in pairs. And apparently, usually couples that are either canon or popular fanon.

Anyway. Now I'm looking for patterns. Starting with my two top-hated characters, Dylan and Ana-Lucia. What do they have in common? Well, they're both leaders (nominally, anyway). They're both assertive. They both heap verbal and occasionally physical abuse on their support team are verbally aggressive. Draw.

Dylan's sexually promiscuous and irresponsible. (*cough* Mad to be Saved *cough) Ana-Lucia, on the other hand, is sexually confident but I wouldn't call her promiscuous or particularly irresponsible. She does sleep with Sawyer, which isn't the smartest move in the world to make, but others have made the same mistake before and after her, and it's not like Sawyer's incapable of saying no (unlike, say, Angelika...I really do loathe the episode MtbS). Which makes Dylan worse.

Ana-Lucia is overly reliant on guns. Dylan is overly reliant on forcelances kickass warships who are smarter than he is forcelances. Also guns. Draw.

Ana-Lucia killed a character I love (namely, Shannon) and failed to show any particular remorse about it. Dylan offered to help save Earth, failed to actually do anything about it, and failed to show any particular remorse. Draw.

There are superficial alt-gender parallels drawn in the text for both of them. Beka could be considered a female Dylan with fewer moral compunctions. The reason this doesn't hold up is that Beka, while sexually confident and certainly more promiscuous than Ana-Lucia, has never slept with someone who was incapable of saying no, and usually manages to find a better way of comforting Harper than "Well, lots more people are dying and it's all your fault LOLS." Ana-Lucia has often been referred to as the female counterpart of Sawyer, and that's a much closer comparison. It falls down, of course, when you realize that Sawyer is presented as a criminal with a dubious moral compass, and Ana-Lucia is presented as a cop who presumably understands the difference between right and wrong. This bothers me. I think if Ana-Lucia had not been a cop I could have understood her killing that guy in flashback more. Anyway, that's a draw.

Which works out to Dylan being worse than Ana-Lucia. Which means either a) gender plays no role in my anticharacter biases, b) I'm predisposed to dislike men more than women, or c) Dylan was written worse. Reading metafandom tells me that it's unlikely to be a if I was raised in 20th century USA, which I was. metafandom also tells me that b is unlikely. So it's probably c.

That's fairly straightforward, right?

Now, the characters I dislike/am disinterested in.

Rose Tyler (dislike): I could tell you it's because the rabid, batshit part of Rose's fanbase turned me off her, but the truth is I dislike Rose because she was mean to Mickey and I overidentify with Mickey, so she was therefore mean to me. And I'm twenty and I hold grudges.

Jack Shepherd and Kate Austen (disinterest): They're so...generic. I don't actually know. Jack is Well Meaning Doctor Who Had Demons In His Past. Kate is Well Meaning Fugitive With Heart Of Gold. Or something. Kate particularly feels inconsistent to me, especially when placed against Claire, Shannon, and Sun, whose personalities I actually understand? Sun deciding to cheat on Jin because he had changed since their marriage felt human to me. Claire deciding to give up her baby because she didn't want to be a single mother was understandable. Shannon losing out on all her dreams and turning to conning Boone for revenge on Sabrina was sad but it made sense. Kate deciding to kill her stepfather because OMG he's actually her biological dad and I CAN'T STAND SHARING GENES WITH YOU!!1!...um...not so much with the understandable. Jack doesn't have anything that ridiculous to excuse, but his only motive seems to be to fix people because he can't fix himself which...doesn't sit well with me, because people should have more complicated motives than that.

Peter Petrelli and Claire Bennett (disinterest): Again with the generic. Also, Peter is emo and rarely seems to accomplish anything, while Claire is your basic cookie-cutter Cheerleader With A Secret.

Liz Parker and Max Evans (varies): When Kyle and Tess (or Alex and Isabel, or Michael and Maria) are doing something interesting/awesome, then I am disinterested in Liz and Max. When Tess is asking "What happens now, Max?" or Kyle is stalking Liz or Maria and Michael are whining about how they want to be Max and Liz, then I actively dislike them. Because the rest of the characters are fairly awesome (and OMG why did they make Emilie de Ravin leave???) and Max and Liz are...generic Romeo & Juliet with alien angst pastede on yay! And Romeo and Juliet were stupid teenagers who let themselves be ruled by hormones. Not one of my favorite character templates.

Monica Reyes and John Doggett (disinterest): Plain, simple, what-happened-to-the-show-I-signed-on-for? I actually never gave Doggett and Reyes a shot on their own terms, and I can admit it. I also never really intend to. I signed on for Mulder, Scully, the Gunmen, and aliens. Not Reyes and Doggett.

Gwen Cooper and Owen Harper (disinterest towards Gwen, dislike towards Owen): Gwen is a fairly personality-less template character. The Heart Of The Team Who Humanizes Them. Aside from her affair. Cheating on Rhys was possibly a sound dramatic choice to make, as it gave her a dimension outside of The Heart Of The Team Who Humanizes Them, but c'mon, Rhys is nearly as awesome as Mickey and deserved better. Owen I actively dislike because...first of all, the alien pheremones in the first episode. Date rape jokes are not funny, and the fact that he never got any dramatic comeuppance drives me crazy. And then there's his heartlessness towards Tosh (Need a hand getting it up? If I did, I wouldn't ask you.) and Tosh I adore. And then he rips open the Rift for someone he barely knew, who left him of her own free will, as opposed to, say, Ianto/Lisa, Gwen/Rhys, or Tosh/her mom. This vexes me.


Um. *rereads* The only pattern I really see here is that I tend to be disinterested in generic template characters who don't get developed past being that. And that aside from Rose bloody Tyler, they tend to come in male/female pairs. This is interesting, I hadn't realized that second part about myself before.


(And yes, I know that there are fans of all the characters I mentioned on my flist. Except Dylan. There aren't any Dylan fans on my flist, are there? Anyway, just to note that these are all personal anticharacterkinks and I don't really expect anyone to agree with me, etc. Except about Dylan. Who should have died by the end of the series.)


I use Chronicle icon because there is NO character in The Chronicle who I do not love unconditionally. Except for very minor characters, and even then I don't often actively dislike them. Truth.

Comments

[petrichor-fizz.livejournal.com]

You don't like Claire? I like Claire.

Sorry. Your post deserved a better comment than that. But I do like Claire.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

I liked Claire when she was hanging out with Zach all the time? But, um. That might have been mostly spillover from liking Zach so much.

I don't actively dislike her, if that helps. I just like other characters so much better.

[petrichor-fizz.livejournal.com]

I think Peter's boring, don't get me wrong. It really bugs me that he gets so much screen-time, actually. But I do like Claire a lot.

That might be spillover from me having a crush on Hayden Panettiere, though.

[It's not that creepy, she's barely any younger than I am, seriously.]

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

That might be spillover from me having a crush on Hayden Panettiere, though.

I can't argue with that. That's a totally legit reason to like a character--I think the main reason I love Tess so much is because she's played by Emilie de Ravin and I very much have a crush on Emilie. She's five years older than me, that's not creepy at all! Although she's straight and I'm asexual so that probably wouldn't work out very well.

[petrichor-fizz.livejournal.com]

I'm with you there, she's gorgeous. She's the reason I kept watching Lost for as long as I did, actually.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

She is without a doubt my number-one female crush. No lie, truth.

[kawaiispinel.livejournal.com]

Wow... That actually made me think. I was pondering my issues with pairings a couple of days ago, but I don't think I've ever openly tried to figure out what sort of characters I adore and which ones I absolutely hate, although I should, but I doubt it follows much of a set pattern. I'm erratic with character likes and dislikes. (My 'ships generally fall into easier niches.)

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

I tend to go over my favorite characters every so often and figure out certain patterns. Like, I always fall in love with the junkies. And, people who mean well and do the best they can and save the world and yet constantly get put down and belittled resonate with me.

It's rarer that I look at the characters I don't like in detail, but it turns up interesting thoughts.

[kawaiispinel.livejournal.com]

It's rarer that I look at the characters I don't like in detail, but it turns up interesting thoughts.

Don't I know it.

I'm going to have to ponder on this. Both character likes and dislikes, because now I'd like to try to figure out what sort of archtypes I'm going for or getting turned off of.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

It makes it easier for people to convert you to new fandoms if the archetypes are all figured out, I know that--I think Niki's original way of getting me to watch The Black Donnellys was to say "There are JUNKIES" and I went "OMG YAY".

[kawaiispinel.livejournal.com]

XD I do know that I love snarky characters or heroes with redemptive arcs who are pretty much jerks for the most part.

Of course, there's one of those in every fandom, practically. It borders on cliche.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Snark is important! How is a show supposed to survive with no snarky characters? It can't. That's how.

*needs to stop thinking right now*

[kawaiispinel.livejournal.com]

XD So true!

Is "snarky bastard" even an archetype? I figure it's just a part of some other headings now.

I think may have come to an epiphany though. First of all, what I like or dislike in a male character and what I like in a female character are different. (Which is odd, but okay.)

What I Like:

Male: Snarky, questionable morals, seedy pasts, generally a bastard to all but a few people OR gregarious, bouncy, hyperactive, comic relief-type characters who can still be strong and daring when they have to be. (And somehow I can't figure out where Desmond falls into this, because he's one of my favorite characters of all time, and he doesn't really fit into a niche.)

Female: Strong, independent, but still vulnerable when it comes to certain things. Generally able to beat the crap out of the guys when it comes down to it.


What I Dislike:

Male: "Deep Blue Hero" types who have never done a single bad thing in their life or if they have, they angst about to the point that it's sickening.

Female: Whiny, overly dramatic, bratty types who cling to the hero all the time and never try to stand up for themself OR selfish women who use other people unfairly to get what they want.

Incidentally, because of my shipper nature, there are characters whom I don't particularly care for alone, but when combined with another character whom they have chemistry with, I love. (That's sort of how I see Rose, I guess.)

Re: *needs to stop thinking right now*

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Desmond is the Romantic Stranger. As an archetype in general. There's a little bit of the Supernatural Mentor (is that an archetype or did I just make it up?) mixed in there, and a good bit of Needs To Prove Himself Worthy. But he started out as the Romantic Stranger.


"Deep Blue Hero" types who have never done a single bad thing in their life or if they have, they angst about to the point that it's sickening.

*epiphany* This is what the Andromeda writers wanted Dylan to be, isn't it? And instead he wound up being a total ass because the later writers catered to KS's ego instead of good writing. But they wanted him to be a Deep Blue Hero!

...I think I still would have hated him if that had actually happened.

Re: *needs to stop thinking right now*

[kawaiispinel.livejournal.com]

"Supernatural Mentor" sounds like it should be an archetye. (Where do the Yodas of the world fit if not?)

See that's what I love about Desmond- he's a variation on several things. I can stand him being all heroic, because he's not so... I dunno, "in your face" about it? (That's my problem with "Deep Blue Heroes"- they're always "I'm such a hero- ooh! Look at me! I save the daaaaay!")

XD I know plenty of characters that turn out like that. (Hell, I think Jack of LOST fame has turned into that sort of ass, because he really is a jerk at times, and not in my fun way.)

Re: *needs to stop thinking right now*

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Most of the Hero subsets need external validation. Which annoys me. I don't want to validate you, dammit, I want you to validate me! *cough*

Jack is an ass at times. I agree. XD But he's not as bad as Dylan! At least, I don't think Jack would sleep with a girl after being explicitly told that she was mentally unstable, may have killed someone, and not coherent enough to tell him no. ...I'm sorry, I really, rabidly hate Dylan.

[daluci.livejournal.com]

That brings up so many interesting points. Sadly, I'm not knowledgeable about many of those fandoms (okay, any aside from Andromeda or a passing Who knowledge), so I can't really say much...

And yes. Dylan should have died. ::sighs::

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Really, I don't understand how none of the writers looked at Dylan and went, "Hmm. You know, he's pretty unlikeable and rather useless. The show's ending anyway and we don't have to worry about Kevin's ego anymore, why don't we kill him off and give the remaining fans a break?"

[longlongwaytogo.livejournal.com]

I've always been bothered by the Mickey abuse also. :( Poor Mickey. Yeah, he's not as fun as the Doctor (at least at first), and their relationship is going nowhere. And she's not actually going out with the doctor, and she's not in love with him at first. But after a while, it might be nice to let poor Mickey go... because you just keep forgetting about him! You can still be friends with him! but stop stringing him along! Mickey was totally justified in what he said and did. And...he should end up with Jake.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

I totally believe Mickey and Jake wound up together. And that Jake has a little bit of a jealous streak and gets mad whenever Mickey mentions Rose and then they have makeup sex.

This belief makes me feel better.

[longlongwaytogo.livejournal.com]

I think that too. They spend a year liberating Paris and stuff, and somewhere along the line he finds out about Jake and Ricky (since that bit about 'never going to find another boyfriend like him' thing was cut, and I think rightly so because it just turned it into a joke) and has a big crisis but stays friends with Jake and Jake's trying to feel alright about the fact that he's still in love with his boyfriend and there's a guy there with the same face as him and similar history but different personality, slightly anyway (I don't think Ricky would be that ... harsh, when they're in private) and so there's a lot of angst, and maybe he's trying to relieve his pain with random french guys (or other places) but then Mickey sorta starts thinking about it and realises that he has a crush on Jake, but doesn't say anything because it freaks him out (they're also getting really close friends throughout this) and then one day he does and then Jake has to figure out his emotions to do with 'replacing' Ricky and stuff, but they decide to give it a go after one day they sorta jump on each other, and then they've been together for about a year when they go and rescue Rose in the other dimension. Because Mickey is still sorta obsessed with her, though not in love. And Jake can understand how he feels and hates that he's hurting, but is also totally jealous. And then Rose is all 'ah' when she finds out...

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

...this is totally my canon now. ♥♥♥

[longlongwaytogo.livejournal.com]

:) I've thought about it way too much.
Oh and at the same time they have to accept the fact that at any moment one could be killed.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Which adds this whole "This could be our last night together!" element to it.

[longlongwaytogo.livejournal.com]

Yep. Plus a whole lot of "there's no point starting this up, either of us could die and then the other be heartbroken and what sort of warrior would that make us?" which would turn to 'I don't care. If I'm going to die I'm going to take love where I can find it'. So they go into battle each and every time knowing that they or the other one could die. they're always prepared for it, which is how they can keep on fighting. They *know* they've got a big chance of dying but getting scared won't help them get out safely.
Which is how in the last two episodes they're alright with fighting seperately. They do what they can to protect each other, as well as trying to balance that with getting to their goal, and that's all they can do. Also there'd be the element of 'well we haven't died yet' bravery.
Similar thing would have happened with Jake and Ricky. sorta 'we're fighting for freedom. When we're safe we can be in love, during battle we have to actually fight and try our best' thing going. But then the Doctor and Rose or the Doctor and Martha would h ave the same problem really. One of them could die at any stage, and the other is left alone and mourning. Yet they do it anyway.

[trascendenza]

THE CHRONICLE SOLIDARITY!

Every character on that show=love. And even though I didn't know most of the fandoms, I read a lot of this post, and it was interesting, not boring ^_^ I agree with you about generic characters--I tend to dislike and/or be disinterested in them. I don't see the point of telling a story about a character so generic they could be inserted into anything.

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

IT'S SO TRUE!!! Every Chronicle character every is fantastic.

And why is it that most stories cast the generic character template as the hero, and all the awesome, quirky, interesting characters as the support? That fails to make sense to me.

[longlongwaytogo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really don't know. I have heard some writers give advice to people before, like, they look at their work and then say 'your secondary character here is more interesting. Switch the perspective to them. '

Actually having the sidekick telling the story rather than the hero would be heaps interesting. :D
I'm also loving the Chronicle, though I've still not downloaded all the episodes let alone watched them all. I think I've seen 10 and downloaded 20...

[trascendenza]

God, that's so true. Why is the hero support so much more interesting than the hero? Probably because writers are afraid the mainstream won't identify with the quirky interesting characters, blah.

[saira.livejournal.com]

I dislike Rose because she was mean to Mickey and I overidentify with Mickey, so she was therefore mean to me

Mickey's a sweetheart, and more dependable than most of the other characters. I like Rose, but I hated the way the show handled the Rose/Mickey/Doctor angst. I don't even see why they felt the need to add a "love triangle" to the show.

[ninja-headcrab.livejournal.com]

I really love your icon. :)

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

It could have worked just as well--better, really--if Rose were really genuinely torn between traveling with the Doctor/being in love with Mickey. Instead of being wholeheartedly committed to traveling with the Doctor "forever" and stringing Mickey along because she couldn't stand the thought of him moving on from her.

This bothers me a lot, if you couldn't tell.

[ninja-headcrab.livejournal.com]

Rose Tyler (dislike): I could tell you it's because the rabid, batshit part of Rose's fanbase turned me off her, but the truth is I dislike Rose because she was mean to Mickey and I overidentify with Mickey, so she was therefore mean to me. And I'm twenty and I hold grudges

Ha! Okay, I just got coffee all over my screen.

I really agree with this because of some posts I saw in a Rose fan journal thing. Every time (this series) Martha would do awesome things (door codes, SAVE EARTH! etc), these people would be like 'Zomg Rose could have so done that better!!1one'. Seriously, Could Rose of walked the Earth for a year spread the word of Doctor? No, she would of given up, or died, or run crying to Mickey (who would have saved the world).

Rose was character I liked at first because she was a good match to 9's 'My peoples are gone and I iz sulking and don't like being nice'. I could of forgiven her for being mean to Mickey in series 1, but it just kept happening. I really think they should of brought in a replacement for Rose much sooner after DT joined the show.

...

I have way more to say but I'm moving house right now and moving the router, byes! *kiss*

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

I really wish I could stop reading the Rosefen reviews. But I keep getting mislead by who_daily taglines that say things like "thoughts on Martha" or "opinions on Last of the Time Lords", and then I click and it's a Rosefen whining that Rose would have done it a million times better and without the whining!!1!1one! And then I go WTF and hit the back button in an attempt not to bash my head against the wall.

Rose&Nine worked, mainly because Nine was emotionally messed up enough to need someone who would forgive him for things and treat him like a good person despite his messed-up-ness. Ten got...not past that, exactly, but he dealt with it differently, and he really needed somebody who would ground him, not enable him.

Have fun. *mwah*

[ninja-headcrab.livejournal.com]

I utterly agree with ^^^. And I didn't really have fun (see journal).


Uhmm there was something else I wanted to add. Don't kill me till you've read the whole thing :P.

Dylan Hunt. Dylan was awesome imo. A slightly glorified hero thrown out of his time and into a world completely different to what he was used to. I really think most people would have lost it there. But Dylan decided to fight it and restore peace and order. He recruits the mis-fit space crew, realising that while they look and are completely dodgy, he can trust them.

Then, somewhere on the World Ship, Dylan was kidnapped and replaced by a idiot who lets his dick do the thinking. He treated Beka like crap, bullied Harper, alienated Tyr possibly his most powerful ally and ignored what Trance was really trying to say and worst of all, screwed over Earth, a planet which could of united a hell of a lot of people.

And then, there was Rommie. I cannot believe that we watched Andromeda for 5 years and nothing was done about Rommie and her thing for Dylan. It needed to be resolved because Rommie/Harper SHOULD be canon it was so obvious.

I really don't know who to blame for Dylan Hunt, it seems wrong to blame Kevin Sorbo but I really don't know. I do think though, that if Dylan had been written out of the show and Beka placed in charge, Andromeda would still be on the air. I personally stopped watching the show because Dylan was had a new fuck buddy each week.

GRRRR!

[chicafrom3.livejournal.com]

Season 1 Dylan had the potential to be awesome. I freely admit that.

Then Robert left, and all that potential went out the window. And I wish he had died. And I blame Kevin Sorbo, among others.

Also, Rommie/Harper SHOULD have been canon. Canon Rommie/Harper would have made up for every bad thing ever.